First, thanks for the invitation of sharing our thoughts about this old story. I had lots of fun writing this. I loved reading fairy tales, myths and legends when I was a kid, and this exercice allow me to reconnect with some feelings I had not feel since I was a child.
Second, I am French speaking so I am not sure I can express correctly all I want to share here, but I’ll try my best.
Here are the thoughts that rise in me when I read that story.
**About the King’s and Queen’s screaming desire to have a child** : There are big risks in wanting to control everything, especially big powerful things like the birth of a living being. Despite «having everything you want», nobody deserves to control everything in their life. We must be careful about what we pray for.
**About the frog in the Queen’s bath** : I think this frog or toad persona is one of the archetypes that strikes my child’s soul the most when I was reading old stories as a young girl. I could not tell the exact titles of the other stories this frog/toad is in, but I remember it was in a lot of them. They gave me a weird sensual pleasure. I was in complete awe of nature when I was a kid, meaning it represented lots of wonders but also lots of fears to me. And imagining a talking frog/toad would appear in my bath was the perfect incarnation of all these mixed feelings. So, to me, in this story, the frog represents kind of a small devil with who the Queen is ready to make a pact to get what she thinks she knows she wants and deserves.
**About the 13th wise woman** : Maybe if the King also had to interact with a speaking frog in his bath in order to get the child he wants, he would have been better prepared to let go of all you need to let go of when you become a parent. Here, he decided that 12 was the exact number of wise women he should invite, no matter what. He decided to simply stick to his perfect plan. But there is simply no way you can protect yourself from the trials of life. They are woven into the fabric of life on Earth. There is no plan perfect enough to put them aside from somebody’s life. There are not even bad in essence, they teach us wiseness. Here, the King doesn’t learn his lesson from the 13th wise woman. He simply replied by more illusion of control.
**About the Princess finding the Old Lady** : It strikes me that Brier-Rose is kind of looking for the Old Lady and the spindle. Contrary to her parents, to who life trials seems to be going after, she is looking for them. Teenagers from all times do that : they chase experiences. The King and the Queen seems to think that because they took great care in doing everything possible to keep their prodigy child safe, they can relax, they can count on the fact that she and they are virtuous enough that nothing «bad» will happen to them.
**About the Sleeping** : Sometimes, while chasing experiences and trying things, we get hurt. And sometimes, instead of going through healing, we shut down, or at least some parts of us shut down. It commonly happens to the part of us that was initially able to experience romantic love. For some reasons, maybe because of overprotective parents, because of the common fear of being afraid or because of a really ego or physically frightening event, we freeze. Maybe this is a tale that the growing number of trauma therapists could use.
**About the Thorn Edge** : I was intrigued by this edge since I was a child. I have always been curious to see how beautifully or not it would be represented in books or movies. I often wished that the Prince would spend more time in it, so that the authors would have to spend word describing it. Which plant was it made of? Was it just one or more species? Was it there to protect the Princess and her princessdom or was it detrimental to her? Now I know this magic Thorn Edge is not more precisely described because in real life it can take so many forms. It represents the barriers we erect around us, around the frightened parts of us. This Edge is actually fabulously protective and enormously harmful, for us and for those trying to cross it.
***The hundred years had just passed, and the day had come when Little Brier-Rose was to awaken*** : This is the part I didn’t remember or I never knew. In my memories, in my romantic fantasy, in my naive ideals, the Prince was able to see through and go through the barriers surrounding the Princess despite she having to show any sign of being ready for this invasion. But it seems here that the Prince is not awakening Sleeping Beauty. She simply reached the moment she is ready to live again. And he, contrary to the King, is ready to embrace all that a life with the Princess will be bringing is in his life: the thorns and the roses.
**The Wedding**: Like all weddings, life is a story of great joys and great challenges.
To me there's a lot of mystery to this tale... a lot unsaid.
What made this last prince able to penetrate the briar? Was it his luck in terms of timing? His proclamation that he was not afraid? Hmmm...
I wonder how much the retelling of this story must have changed over the generations and hundreds of times it was passed around before it was written down...
I'm gonna chew on this one some more.
Sometimes, such passed on tales hold deeper wisdom and sometimes they simply carry the shadows and wishes of past generations...
And much of it serves as a Rhoscharch test... allowing me to project my own meaning on it...
To me, right now, there is something unsettling and almost too easy about the way it is resolved. That simply the young man who wants love and fortune and tells himself to not be afraid will get it... like the lies our culture tells us about "you can be whatever you want to be, if you only work hard enough for it" or that "love is there if you dare to seek it." Why did the other princes fail? I imagine them to be also equally entitled and daring...
Maybe, I am expecting more tension and conflict... and something harder earned and this is a tale inviting surrender and softening... upending expectations and offering love to any and all who seek it...
those are fine wonderings. yes. much is left unsaid or... said in an image - which says so much if it's understood. And aye - i think his getting through the hedge was a bit of right timing and also his lack of fear. It strikes me that, as byron katie says, "We only have two fears: the fear that we won't get what we want or that we'll lose what we have." And so, perhaps he's approaching without fear because he's not attached to 'getting her'. And it's worth noting that other versions have more of the backstory of the prince where some of that adversity appears but yes - there's a deep cultural bias that the only good things come through adversity. we suspect it if it's too easy. somehow we haven't 'earned it'. I suspect there's some hung over religious guilt we all carry around this.
Tad, I appreciate very much your take on the absence of fear — as a possible sign he was in a state of non striving and open heartedness… so much in the nuance of each telling and from the interpretation… I would love to hear the telling live.
I've been thinking about why this story traveled and shifted and survived and I feel unsatisfied by where I've come to, but I think there's a bit of value in the wrangling, so I thought I'd share. I recently listened to an interview with Stephanie Mackay and two important points have stuck with me. 1. Stories as a language of the land that humans can make sense of. 2. That non-Indigenous folks often psychological stories too much.
Anyway, the two parts of the story that really grabbed me this time were excluding the 13th wise woman because they only had 12 gold plates and the men who tried to take without asking, getting caught in the thorn bushes and left to die. I think these do show some aspects of right relating with other humans and the earth. And it feels very psychological and moralistic in a way that doesn't feel like it does justice to the story.
I think you're on track. Keep following those threads. Those are two central images. Why indeed wouldn't the King have had a 13th golden plate? Why not get one made? And why banish the 13th in particular? And what else might these men in the Briars be if not human men? What could it be pointing to?
I know I'm really late here, as this caught me traveling overseas, but just in case you still see comments - if you aren't familiar with Chris Knight's talk, Decoding Sleeping Beauty, you should check it out.
I read somewhere that, at the time when Descartes was making the case for elevating the knowledge of the mind over the wisdom of the body, witches were burning. He was witnessing atrocities being committed under the influence of belief in intangible energies. In this context, dismissing the invisible as mere superstition created a shift in consciousness that created a path out of the hysterical negative pattern that was wreaking havoc among the people he lived among. Now we live in an age where the problems created by the hyper rationalism Descartes favored are catching up with us, creating atrocities that threaten us all. In the face of this, many of us are learning to reconnect with our body wisdom and to respect intangible energies.
I also have read a lot about how the earth is moving now into a different position in the galaxy, out of a hundreds of years period in which we were enveloped in some kind of cosmic dust cloud, and into a time when we are literally receiving more light than any of us have ever known. Some of the changes happening on our planet are indeed the result of human hubris, but some of them are simply part of cosmic shifts that happen well beyond our control.
Reading Little Brier Rose, I thought/felt about the period of darkness that is human history over the past several hundred (perhaps thousand?) years. Necessary? Inevitable? The product of human thought or galactic events? In any case, it’s what we’ve inherited. I’m thinking about how, as we were going into this age when appearance and protocol take precedence over deep wisdom and inclusion (only twelve golden plates), there must have been wise ones who warned of the consequences: if you exclude the deep (feminine) wisdom, then the thing you prize most in life (the vital young feminine) will die before she can bring forth new life. And other wise ones who foresaw that the hiatus could be temporary, as long as humanity eventually reconnected to the genuine masculine aspect of its soul, and fell in love again with the young feminine.
For reasons beyond our control, we have had to wait until the time was right (the thorn hedge finally yielding). Keeping the story alive has been like lighting a candle in the midst of a very dark night. There’s a deep memory of a time when we knew to trust those things that modern logic has tried so hard to erase. We’ve learned to try to ignore them, but the legend persists. There’s a vital force hiding deep in our midst. She’s only sleeping, we can love her back into being when the morning returns. Notice how many folks who talk about moving forward into a new consciousness use the language of “waking up.” The story has kept us prepared for the passage of human history we face now.
Elisabeth, Thank you for taking the time to comment. A profound thought about Descarte. And yes to this, "if you exclude the deep (feminine) wisdom, then the thing you prize most in life (the vital young feminine) will die before she can bring forth new life." And I loved this, "For reasons beyond our control, we have had to wait until the time was right (the thorn hedge finally yielding). Keeping the story alive has been like lighting a candle in the midst of a very dark night."
The strongest element for me in the story of Briar-Rose is the rise of human love, which, I am told, is only a pale reflection of the divine love that is all around us.
The "damsel in distress" trope is here, but people don't usually seem to notice that the princes in these stories have to face great danger, and even fight dragons sometimes. In other words, they have to want to, above all else, connect with the the feminine, and, as well, prove themselves worthy of the feminine by undergoing great trials. Until the feminine is honored, societies remain frozen and stuck in the grip of the patriarchal view.
Rosemary, Thank you for taking the time to comment. "people don't usually seem to notice that the princes in these stories have to face great danger, and even fight dragons sometimes." - good catch. Being in love is not enough. We need to have the capacity to hold and care for the one we admire.
It is interesting how this fairy tale has come back into the zeitgeist. I was recently made aware of a workshop about this story and its psychological interpretation. We have to admit that Disney was key in perpetuating these princesses in distress through its powerful influencing techniques. With all that said, the point in Sleeping Beauty that makes it more poignant is that time had to be respected. The prince who woke her only succeeded because 100 years had passed. This makes me think we must understand that cycles take time to complete, even if it is incredibly uncomfortable. Look what is happening in the world today: the pendulum is swinging to the right, and populism continues to rise. We are already living in distressing times, crying out for the world to wake up (at least some of us). The question I have is how to continue moving humanity forward whilst we wait for the cycle to conclude.
This may be completely mistaken. I think the story has been kept alive because its perplexing, tragic and has powerful magic. People cant turn away from watching a slow motion train wreck.
For sooth, why does the King value eating on the 12 golden plates such that he disrespects one of the 13 wise women by not inviting her? Why does the King load his baby daughter with the magic gifts from the wise women as if she is not enough of her own possession and with all the wealth of her parents? What was the impact of burning all the spindles in the Kingdom? I suspect no yarn or thread was made in the Kingdom after that creating economic chaos and social disorder. Why were the King and Queen away from the Castle on their daughters' 15th birthday? Seems a bit of over confidence and hubris on their part believing the curse could not come true because all the spindles in the Kingdom had been burned 15 years ago. The Kingdom is not a closed system. And I guess no one told the Princess about the curse and that she shouldn't play with spindles, especially on her 15th birthday.
The sleep, perchance to dream. A hundred year sleep of the Princess and all the beings in the castle. Why does the entire castle fall asleep when the curse was only to effect the Princess? Princes died miserably trying to force their way into the castle as the modified curse of the disrespected wise woman would not be broken. When the 100 year sleep came to an end the prince was able to pass through the thorn hedge as it was now large beautiful flowers and as his lips touched her she awoke. Put asleep with the touch of the spindle and awoken with the touch of a Princes' lips. Perplexing.
"For sooth, why does the King value eating on the 12 golden plates such that he disrespects one of the 13 wise women by not inviting her?" It's worth wondering about this formulation. Is it that he values his 12 gold plates over respect of the 13 women or could there be some other reason that a 13th plate isn't provided? I think there may be more to it.
"Why does the King load his baby daughter with the magic gifts from the wise women as if she is not enough of her own possession and with all the wealth of her parents?" I think the traditional understanding was that every baby received these blessing from these old ones. It wasn't reserved for the children of royalty.
"What was the impact of burning all the spindles in the Kingdom? I suspect no yarn or thread was made in the Kingdom after that creating economic chaos and social disorder." - Aye. Shortsighted.
"Seems a bit of over confidence and hubris on their part believing the curse could not come true because all the spindles in the Kingdom had been burned 15 years ago." And don't we all do this all the time - imagine we can control what will happen in the future.
"Why does the entire castle fall asleep when the curse was only to effect the Princess?" That is one of the most important questions that unlocks this entire story.
From your post on mystery you say - "there is something mystery asks of us that is all but unknown in this culture - the capacity to be in the presence of something unfamiliar without grasping at it or mauling it with our desire to turn it into something familiar."
The familiar gives us a sense of safety. When there are more mysteries than our ability to be present with we feel unsafe and seek to maul the mystery into the familiar.
I can understand this in relationship to people in the US choosing a "strong man" leader - a King - who promises to make the mysteries of a complex world knowable and familiar. Dare we trust the King who orders us to burn all the spindles.
For me, after the US election I decided to stop reading the news and listening to political podcasts. The volume of mysteries had overwhelmed my capacity to be with them without grasping and mauling.
The story has all the elements that touch human hearts: the longing for a child by even a king and queen (who have ‘everything’ but somehow procreation is a challenge); a fathers desperation to provide ‘everything’ for a beloved child; the devastating pride of men; the astounding power of women, especially to take revenge when our powers are disrespected; the inevitability of human choice to have consequence that can only be softened; the magic of coincidental timing and the redemptive power of the longing for beauty, live and human king/queendom to be restored.
I feel joy that the magic in this story is being unfolded, and I fear it becoming a diversion. So I ask, how will you empower the wisdom gleaned through the study to become consequential in the students lives?
Nicole, Thank you for taking the time to comment. So beautifully rendered. The whole thing. And this will be a big wondering for us in our six week course on this. If you end up making it to any of our events - https://meetingmyancestors.com/briar-rose/ - I'd welcome your suggestions on how to ensure this leads to deepened dedication not distraction.
Thank you Tad. I will bring a suggestion here, since I am already fully committed to other spaces and projects this winter:
Bring the possibility that students could invent their own experiments to do, using what they find during the study about their own edges.
I assume that anyone who would come to such a study group is an Edgeworker ( https://edgeworker.mystrikingly.com/ ). Edgeworkers do, I find, have a proclivity to becoming distracted by theory and thinking, sometimes avoiding reality and action. When they are challenged to do real-life research, making themselves and their personal evolution (maybe even transformation)objects and subjects of their experiments, they are challeneged to think and act, and possibly to share what they discover. 'Everyone' is an experimenter of some degree, but not every one is a conscious experimenter. Becoming a conscious experimenter is to become a more rapid learner. https://becomeanexperimenter.mystrikingly.com/ I think the world is desperate for conscious experimenters sharing the gold of their lived experience. https://becomeanexperimenter.mystrikingly.com/
First, thanks for the invitation of sharing our thoughts about this old story. I had lots of fun writing this. I loved reading fairy tales, myths and legends when I was a kid, and this exercice allow me to reconnect with some feelings I had not feel since I was a child.
Second, I am French speaking so I am not sure I can express correctly all I want to share here, but I’ll try my best.
Here are the thoughts that rise in me when I read that story.
**About the King’s and Queen’s screaming desire to have a child** : There are big risks in wanting to control everything, especially big powerful things like the birth of a living being. Despite «having everything you want», nobody deserves to control everything in their life. We must be careful about what we pray for.
**About the frog in the Queen’s bath** : I think this frog or toad persona is one of the archetypes that strikes my child’s soul the most when I was reading old stories as a young girl. I could not tell the exact titles of the other stories this frog/toad is in, but I remember it was in a lot of them. They gave me a weird sensual pleasure. I was in complete awe of nature when I was a kid, meaning it represented lots of wonders but also lots of fears to me. And imagining a talking frog/toad would appear in my bath was the perfect incarnation of all these mixed feelings. So, to me, in this story, the frog represents kind of a small devil with who the Queen is ready to make a pact to get what she thinks she knows she wants and deserves.
**About the 13th wise woman** : Maybe if the King also had to interact with a speaking frog in his bath in order to get the child he wants, he would have been better prepared to let go of all you need to let go of when you become a parent. Here, he decided that 12 was the exact number of wise women he should invite, no matter what. He decided to simply stick to his perfect plan. But there is simply no way you can protect yourself from the trials of life. They are woven into the fabric of life on Earth. There is no plan perfect enough to put them aside from somebody’s life. There are not even bad in essence, they teach us wiseness. Here, the King doesn’t learn his lesson from the 13th wise woman. He simply replied by more illusion of control.
**About the Princess finding the Old Lady** : It strikes me that Brier-Rose is kind of looking for the Old Lady and the spindle. Contrary to her parents, to who life trials seems to be going after, she is looking for them. Teenagers from all times do that : they chase experiences. The King and the Queen seems to think that because they took great care in doing everything possible to keep their prodigy child safe, they can relax, they can count on the fact that she and they are virtuous enough that nothing «bad» will happen to them.
**About the Sleeping** : Sometimes, while chasing experiences and trying things, we get hurt. And sometimes, instead of going through healing, we shut down, or at least some parts of us shut down. It commonly happens to the part of us that was initially able to experience romantic love. For some reasons, maybe because of overprotective parents, because of the common fear of being afraid or because of a really ego or physically frightening event, we freeze. Maybe this is a tale that the growing number of trauma therapists could use.
**About the Thorn Edge** : I was intrigued by this edge since I was a child. I have always been curious to see how beautifully or not it would be represented in books or movies. I often wished that the Prince would spend more time in it, so that the authors would have to spend word describing it. Which plant was it made of? Was it just one or more species? Was it there to protect the Princess and her princessdom or was it detrimental to her? Now I know this magic Thorn Edge is not more precisely described because in real life it can take so many forms. It represents the barriers we erect around us, around the frightened parts of us. This Edge is actually fabulously protective and enormously harmful, for us and for those trying to cross it.
***The hundred years had just passed, and the day had come when Little Brier-Rose was to awaken*** : This is the part I didn’t remember or I never knew. In my memories, in my romantic fantasy, in my naive ideals, the Prince was able to see through and go through the barriers surrounding the Princess despite she having to show any sign of being ready for this invasion. But it seems here that the Prince is not awakening Sleeping Beauty. She simply reached the moment she is ready to live again. And he, contrary to the King, is ready to embrace all that a life with the Princess will be bringing is in his life: the thorns and the roses.
**The Wedding**: Like all weddings, life is a story of great joys and great challenges.
When the King invites 12 of the 13 wise women he leans into the solar world of the masculine and ignores the lunar world of the feminine. The King does not honour balance between the two. 13 is associated with the 13 lunar cycles; with balance and harmony and with the sacred feminine. The 13th wise woman is warning us that if we don't live in balance and harmony between masculine and feminine energies we will die. We are a society in a supine slumber... we are sleep walking into species extinction, extreme violence.... To survive, we must awaken the frozen cord of connection between masculine and feminine, left and right, human and nature, between one and all......
"When the King invites 12 of the 13 wise women he leans into the solar world of the masculine and ignores the lunar world of the feminine." It could be ignoring. It could also simply be a lack of capacity. He knows there are 13. "There were thirteen of them in his kingdom, but because he had only twelve golden plates from which they were to eat, one of them had to remain at home." And "The 13th wise woman is warning us that if we don't live in balance and harmony between masculine and feminine energies we will die. We are a society in a supine slumber... we are sleep walking into species extinction, extreme violence.... To survive, we must awaken the frozen cord of connection between masculine and feminine, left and right, human and nature, between one and all...." I think there'a a lot of wisdom in that. I'll give that a mighty amen.
This question brings to mind many threads - as you began laying them out, spinning, roses, thorns, sleeping/waiting, quests, frozen time, return to old ways, right timing, divine/heavenly order, a girl who has it all but not quite, a prince whose timing is impeccable, overly protective parents who without knowledge and thereby set up the situation where their daughter's curiosity will be her own undoing, death as frozen time but not quite dead and gone, overgrown and buried in the vegetation time and buildings and people and life, stands still and while it is overgrown and hard to find, it does not create decay so this makes me think of what is it that does not decay, what stands in the face of time and progress and still is true, what is the perennial truth of life, of progress, of love, of nature, of the rose? That which gives the rose its perennial nature does not die but waits underground until the land the soil the air is right for it to bloom again. The one hundred years that the curse is inflicted ensures that all who knew the story are dead when the princess comes back to life by the kiss of the successful prince. The story however is kept alive by townsfolk who tell it and who caution princes who want to go on a quest and break the spell. What does the soil need to have to regenerate itself and create conditions for renewal and life? How do we weave stories and pass them down and watch the cautionary tales not help those who will nevertheless pursue the princess and the glory? We have the original story, and we have the story being passed down in the story. When is the time ripe for the story to bloom again in our time? Many will pursue and fail until the time is ripe for success and blossoming. Can't ignore the number twelve either - it is represented in the heavens and in the seasons and times we let fields go fallow in order to keep the soil rich and healthy for the next planting.
Janet! Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. "Many will pursue and fail until the time is ripe for success and blossoming." Aye. Just as we do in our own lives. Failing many times until we succeed. Beautiful thoughts. So grateful.
To me the signs are there to warn us of the spells we will continue to be under, until the harmony and balance of the Feminine and Masculine energies return. There are only 12 plates laid on the table because this represents the 12 solar months in the modern era (not 13 lunar months which were used in the older pre Gregorian pagan calender). 13 is associated with transformation, magic, new discovery , feminine power and rebirth. 13 was associated with the Pagan calendar and ways, which in turn was negatively associated in the post Christian era with witchcraft. Hence why the 13th fairy (witch) isn't invited. 13 is a number of transformation so the witches curse will also be a blessing. As we can't remain naive forever. The parents had been unable to conceive, however hope arrived when the Mother spoke to the frog and this shows she still had some link to nature and ancient wisdom herself. So all was not lost. The 13th fairy's curse placed into motion a challenge to bring balance. When the ways of the land (Pagan/lunar/feminine/earth Honouring) aren't understood, and the wisdom of the Female wisdom keepers ignored, there is imbalance between the Masculine and Feminine energy. Sleeping beauty is under a spell of disempowerment. (This was linked to the spindle prick. To be a spinster is to be unmarried , could this be by choice?) This spell is reflected in nature and the hidden castle lies asleep. Both the land and the people are frozen in time. There is no progress. Nobody dares to break the spell and men that try mostly fail. Sleeping beauty potentially represents the embodiment of the Feminine energy (the old ways of the land and pagan times) but this is yet unawakened. She has it all, in gifts and grace. But what use is this if she isn't able to be treated in equality with the masculine energy to bring harmony and empowerment back to the people and land. This male character is willing to take a risk and helps 'wake up' sleeping beauty from her psychological slumber and the spells everyone else is under. In the whole process of this apparent curse, it is really a blessing. There is unity in the people and land because the feminine has woken up because the Mothers unconscious wisdom set the potential in motion, the wise crone set a challenge for the masculine to take action and sleeping beauty waited for this to happen without settling for anything less. Unity and harmony return and so does nature as the spell of disempowerment receedes and so do the brambles.
Orietta, thank you for taking the time. "The 13th fairy's curse placed into motion a challenge to bring balance." I love this. One thing worth considering is that, in other versions of the story there are 3 or 7 or 8 of the grandmothers. It's not always 12 or 13.
"Sleeping beauty is under a spell of disempowerment." This could be so and I think there's a vaster thing going on than gender in this moment. Or it's gender in a grander scale.
"This spell is reflected in nature and the hidden castle lies asleep. Both the land and the people are frozen in time. There is no progress." - Aye. And I wonder if that's a good or bad thing or some other kind of thing.
I'm curious where in the story you see that she isn't being treated in equality with the masculine energy?
I think it's also worth wondering if this is a story about a young woman only and if the slumber is psychological in nature.
"the feminine has woken up because the Mothers unconscious wisdom set the potential in motion, the wise crone set a challenge for the masculine to take action and sleeping beauty waited for this to happen without settling for anything less" beautiful
First, thanks for the invitation of sharing our thoughts about this old story. I had lots of fun writing this. I loved reading fairy tales, myths and legends when I was a kid, and this exercice allow me to reconnect with some feelings I had not feel since I was a child.
Second, I am French speaking so I am not sure I can express correctly all I want to share here, but I’ll try my best.
Here are the thoughts that rise in me when I read that story.
**About the King’s and Queen’s screaming desire to have a child** : There are big risks in wanting to control everything, especially big powerful things like the birth of a living being. Despite «having everything you want», nobody deserves to control everything in their life. We must be careful about what we pray for.
**About the frog in the Queen’s bath** : I think this frog or toad persona is one of the archetypes that strikes my child’s soul the most when I was reading old stories as a young girl. I could not tell the exact titles of the other stories this frog/toad is in, but I remember it was in a lot of them. They gave me a weird sensual pleasure. I was in complete awe of nature when I was a kid, meaning it represented lots of wonders but also lots of fears to me. And imagining a talking frog/toad would appear in my bath was the perfect incarnation of all these mixed feelings. So, to me, in this story, the frog represents kind of a small devil with who the Queen is ready to make a pact to get what she thinks she knows she wants and deserves.
**About the 13th wise woman** : Maybe if the King also had to interact with a speaking frog in his bath in order to get the child he wants, he would have been better prepared to let go of all you need to let go of when you become a parent. Here, he decided that 12 was the exact number of wise women he should invite, no matter what. He decided to simply stick to his perfect plan. But there is simply no way you can protect yourself from the trials of life. They are woven into the fabric of life on Earth. There is no plan perfect enough to put them aside from somebody’s life. There are not even bad in essence, they teach us wiseness. Here, the King doesn’t learn his lesson from the 13th wise woman. He simply replied by more illusion of control.
**About the Princess finding the Old Lady** : It strikes me that Brier-Rose is kind of looking for the Old Lady and the spindle. Contrary to her parents, to who life trials seems to be going after, she is looking for them. Teenagers from all times do that : they chase experiences. The King and the Queen seems to think that because they took great care in doing everything possible to keep their prodigy child safe, they can relax, they can count on the fact that she and they are virtuous enough that nothing «bad» will happen to them.
**About the Sleeping** : Sometimes, while chasing experiences and trying things, we get hurt. And sometimes, instead of going through healing, we shut down, or at least some parts of us shut down. It commonly happens to the part of us that was initially able to experience romantic love. For some reasons, maybe because of overprotective parents, because of the common fear of being afraid or because of a really ego or physically frightening event, we freeze. Maybe this is a tale that the growing number of trauma therapists could use.
**About the Thorn Edge** : I was intrigued by this edge since I was a child. I have always been curious to see how beautifully or not it would be represented in books or movies. I often wished that the Prince would spend more time in it, so that the authors would have to spend word describing it. Which plant was it made of? Was it just one or more species? Was it there to protect the Princess and her princessdom or was it detrimental to her? Now I know this magic Thorn Edge is not more precisely described because in real life it can take so many forms. It represents the barriers we erect around us, around the frightened parts of us. This Edge is actually fabulously protective and enormously harmful, for us and for those trying to cross it.
***The hundred years had just passed, and the day had come when Little Brier-Rose was to awaken*** : This is the part I didn’t remember or I never knew. In my memories, in my romantic fantasy, in my naive ideals, the Prince was able to see through and go through the barriers surrounding the Princess despite she having to show any sign of being ready for this invasion. But it seems here that the Prince is not awakening Sleeping Beauty. She simply reached the moment she is ready to live again. And he, contrary to the King, is ready to embrace all that a life with the Princess will be bringing is in his life: the thorns and the roses.
**The Wedding**: Like all weddings, life is a story of great joys and great challenges.
beautiful wonderings. You might enjoy this post: https://tadhargrave.substack.com/publish/posts/detail/153734351?referrer=%2Fpublish%2Fposts
is there a way I can read it without subscribing?
To me there's a lot of mystery to this tale... a lot unsaid.
What made this last prince able to penetrate the briar? Was it his luck in terms of timing? His proclamation that he was not afraid? Hmmm...
I wonder how much the retelling of this story must have changed over the generations and hundreds of times it was passed around before it was written down...
I'm gonna chew on this one some more.
Sometimes, such passed on tales hold deeper wisdom and sometimes they simply carry the shadows and wishes of past generations...
And much of it serves as a Rhoscharch test... allowing me to project my own meaning on it...
To me, right now, there is something unsettling and almost too easy about the way it is resolved. That simply the young man who wants love and fortune and tells himself to not be afraid will get it... like the lies our culture tells us about "you can be whatever you want to be, if you only work hard enough for it" or that "love is there if you dare to seek it." Why did the other princes fail? I imagine them to be also equally entitled and daring...
Maybe, I am expecting more tension and conflict... and something harder earned and this is a tale inviting surrender and softening... upending expectations and offering love to any and all who seek it...
I'll be sitting with this for a while...
those are fine wonderings. yes. much is left unsaid or... said in an image - which says so much if it's understood. And aye - i think his getting through the hedge was a bit of right timing and also his lack of fear. It strikes me that, as byron katie says, "We only have two fears: the fear that we won't get what we want or that we'll lose what we have." And so, perhaps he's approaching without fear because he's not attached to 'getting her'. And it's worth noting that other versions have more of the backstory of the prince where some of that adversity appears but yes - there's a deep cultural bias that the only good things come through adversity. we suspect it if it's too easy. somehow we haven't 'earned it'. I suspect there's some hung over religious guilt we all carry around this.
Tad, I appreciate very much your take on the absence of fear — as a possible sign he was in a state of non striving and open heartedness… so much in the nuance of each telling and from the interpretation… I would love to hear the telling live.
I've been thinking about why this story traveled and shifted and survived and I feel unsatisfied by where I've come to, but I think there's a bit of value in the wrangling, so I thought I'd share. I recently listened to an interview with Stephanie Mackay and two important points have stuck with me. 1. Stories as a language of the land that humans can make sense of. 2. That non-Indigenous folks often psychological stories too much.
Anyway, the two parts of the story that really grabbed me this time were excluding the 13th wise woman because they only had 12 gold plates and the men who tried to take without asking, getting caught in the thorn bushes and left to die. I think these do show some aspects of right relating with other humans and the earth. And it feels very psychological and moralistic in a way that doesn't feel like it does justice to the story.
I think you're on track. Keep following those threads. Those are two central images. Why indeed wouldn't the King have had a 13th golden plate? Why not get one made? And why banish the 13th in particular? And what else might these men in the Briars be if not human men? What could it be pointing to?
I know I'm really late here, as this caught me traveling overseas, but just in case you still see comments - if you aren't familiar with Chris Knight's talk, Decoding Sleeping Beauty, you should check it out.
https://shorturl.at/ZxZql
(It's on Vimeo - I shortened the link because the original was a long paragraph.)
Yes! I'm also halfway through his book Blood Relations. Incredible work.
I read somewhere that, at the time when Descartes was making the case for elevating the knowledge of the mind over the wisdom of the body, witches were burning. He was witnessing atrocities being committed under the influence of belief in intangible energies. In this context, dismissing the invisible as mere superstition created a shift in consciousness that created a path out of the hysterical negative pattern that was wreaking havoc among the people he lived among. Now we live in an age where the problems created by the hyper rationalism Descartes favored are catching up with us, creating atrocities that threaten us all. In the face of this, many of us are learning to reconnect with our body wisdom and to respect intangible energies.
I also have read a lot about how the earth is moving now into a different position in the galaxy, out of a hundreds of years period in which we were enveloped in some kind of cosmic dust cloud, and into a time when we are literally receiving more light than any of us have ever known. Some of the changes happening on our planet are indeed the result of human hubris, but some of them are simply part of cosmic shifts that happen well beyond our control.
Reading Little Brier Rose, I thought/felt about the period of darkness that is human history over the past several hundred (perhaps thousand?) years. Necessary? Inevitable? The product of human thought or galactic events? In any case, it’s what we’ve inherited. I’m thinking about how, as we were going into this age when appearance and protocol take precedence over deep wisdom and inclusion (only twelve golden plates), there must have been wise ones who warned of the consequences: if you exclude the deep (feminine) wisdom, then the thing you prize most in life (the vital young feminine) will die before she can bring forth new life. And other wise ones who foresaw that the hiatus could be temporary, as long as humanity eventually reconnected to the genuine masculine aspect of its soul, and fell in love again with the young feminine.
For reasons beyond our control, we have had to wait until the time was right (the thorn hedge finally yielding). Keeping the story alive has been like lighting a candle in the midst of a very dark night. There’s a deep memory of a time when we knew to trust those things that modern logic has tried so hard to erase. We’ve learned to try to ignore them, but the legend persists. There’s a vital force hiding deep in our midst. She’s only sleeping, we can love her back into being when the morning returns. Notice how many folks who talk about moving forward into a new consciousness use the language of “waking up.” The story has kept us prepared for the passage of human history we face now.
Elisabeth, Thank you for taking the time to comment. A profound thought about Descarte. And yes to this, "if you exclude the deep (feminine) wisdom, then the thing you prize most in life (the vital young feminine) will die before she can bring forth new life." And I loved this, "For reasons beyond our control, we have had to wait until the time was right (the thorn hedge finally yielding). Keeping the story alive has been like lighting a candle in the midst of a very dark night."
The strongest element for me in the story of Briar-Rose is the rise of human love, which, I am told, is only a pale reflection of the divine love that is all around us.
The "damsel in distress" trope is here, but people don't usually seem to notice that the princes in these stories have to face great danger, and even fight dragons sometimes. In other words, they have to want to, above all else, connect with the the feminine, and, as well, prove themselves worthy of the feminine by undergoing great trials. Until the feminine is honored, societies remain frozen and stuck in the grip of the patriarchal view.
Rosemary, Thank you for taking the time to comment. "people don't usually seem to notice that the princes in these stories have to face great danger, and even fight dragons sometimes." - good catch. Being in love is not enough. We need to have the capacity to hold and care for the one we admire.
It is interesting how this fairy tale has come back into the zeitgeist. I was recently made aware of a workshop about this story and its psychological interpretation. We have to admit that Disney was key in perpetuating these princesses in distress through its powerful influencing techniques. With all that said, the point in Sleeping Beauty that makes it more poignant is that time had to be respected. The prince who woke her only succeeded because 100 years had passed. This makes me think we must understand that cycles take time to complete, even if it is incredibly uncomfortable. Look what is happening in the world today: the pendulum is swinging to the right, and populism continues to rise. We are already living in distressing times, crying out for the world to wake up (at least some of us). The question I have is how to continue moving humanity forward whilst we wait for the cycle to conclude.
Thank you for taking the time to comment.
"that time had to be respected. The prince who woke her only succeeded because 100 years had passed" good catch. And good question. How long, indeed?
This may be completely mistaken. I think the story has been kept alive because its perplexing, tragic and has powerful magic. People cant turn away from watching a slow motion train wreck.
For sooth, why does the King value eating on the 12 golden plates such that he disrespects one of the 13 wise women by not inviting her? Why does the King load his baby daughter with the magic gifts from the wise women as if she is not enough of her own possession and with all the wealth of her parents? What was the impact of burning all the spindles in the Kingdom? I suspect no yarn or thread was made in the Kingdom after that creating economic chaos and social disorder. Why were the King and Queen away from the Castle on their daughters' 15th birthday? Seems a bit of over confidence and hubris on their part believing the curse could not come true because all the spindles in the Kingdom had been burned 15 years ago. The Kingdom is not a closed system. And I guess no one told the Princess about the curse and that she shouldn't play with spindles, especially on her 15th birthday.
The sleep, perchance to dream. A hundred year sleep of the Princess and all the beings in the castle. Why does the entire castle fall asleep when the curse was only to effect the Princess? Princes died miserably trying to force their way into the castle as the modified curse of the disrespected wise woman would not be broken. When the 100 year sleep came to an end the prince was able to pass through the thorn hedge as it was now large beautiful flowers and as his lips touched her she awoke. Put asleep with the touch of the spindle and awoken with the touch of a Princes' lips. Perplexing.
"For sooth, why does the King value eating on the 12 golden plates such that he disrespects one of the 13 wise women by not inviting her?" It's worth wondering about this formulation. Is it that he values his 12 gold plates over respect of the 13 women or could there be some other reason that a 13th plate isn't provided? I think there may be more to it.
"Why does the King load his baby daughter with the magic gifts from the wise women as if she is not enough of her own possession and with all the wealth of her parents?" I think the traditional understanding was that every baby received these blessing from these old ones. It wasn't reserved for the children of royalty.
"What was the impact of burning all the spindles in the Kingdom? I suspect no yarn or thread was made in the Kingdom after that creating economic chaos and social disorder." - Aye. Shortsighted.
"Seems a bit of over confidence and hubris on their part believing the curse could not come true because all the spindles in the Kingdom had been burned 15 years ago." And don't we all do this all the time - imagine we can control what will happen in the future.
"Why does the entire castle fall asleep when the curse was only to effect the Princess?" That is one of the most important questions that unlocks this entire story.
And yes. It is all perplexing. You might enjoy this post: https://tadhargrave.substack.com/p/the-mystery-seed
Thank you for taking the time to comment.
From your post on mystery you say - "there is something mystery asks of us that is all but unknown in this culture - the capacity to be in the presence of something unfamiliar without grasping at it or mauling it with our desire to turn it into something familiar."
The familiar gives us a sense of safety. When there are more mysteries than our ability to be present with we feel unsafe and seek to maul the mystery into the familiar.
I can understand this in relationship to people in the US choosing a "strong man" leader - a King - who promises to make the mysteries of a complex world knowable and familiar. Dare we trust the King who orders us to burn all the spindles.
For me, after the US election I decided to stop reading the news and listening to political podcasts. The volume of mysteries had overwhelmed my capacity to be with them without grasping and mauling.
Aye. Uncertain times breed the desire for strong men and the mystery is both banished and ballooned at the same time. Another mystery.
The story has all the elements that touch human hearts: the longing for a child by even a king and queen (who have ‘everything’ but somehow procreation is a challenge); a fathers desperation to provide ‘everything’ for a beloved child; the devastating pride of men; the astounding power of women, especially to take revenge when our powers are disrespected; the inevitability of human choice to have consequence that can only be softened; the magic of coincidental timing and the redemptive power of the longing for beauty, live and human king/queendom to be restored.
I feel joy that the magic in this story is being unfolded, and I fear it becoming a diversion. So I ask, how will you empower the wisdom gleaned through the study to become consequential in the students lives?
Nicole, Thank you for taking the time to comment. So beautifully rendered. The whole thing. And this will be a big wondering for us in our six week course on this. If you end up making it to any of our events - https://meetingmyancestors.com/briar-rose/ - I'd welcome your suggestions on how to ensure this leads to deepened dedication not distraction.
Thank you Tad. I will bring a suggestion here, since I am already fully committed to other spaces and projects this winter:
Bring the possibility that students could invent their own experiments to do, using what they find during the study about their own edges.
I assume that anyone who would come to such a study group is an Edgeworker ( https://edgeworker.mystrikingly.com/ ). Edgeworkers do, I find, have a proclivity to becoming distracted by theory and thinking, sometimes avoiding reality and action. When they are challenged to do real-life research, making themselves and their personal evolution (maybe even transformation)objects and subjects of their experiments, they are challeneged to think and act, and possibly to share what they discover. 'Everyone' is an experimenter of some degree, but not every one is a conscious experimenter. Becoming a conscious experimenter is to become a more rapid learner. https://becomeanexperimenter.mystrikingly.com/ I think the world is desperate for conscious experimenters sharing the gold of their lived experience. https://becomeanexperimenter.mystrikingly.com/
Love, Nicole
First, thanks for the invitation of sharing our thoughts about this old story. I had lots of fun writing this. I loved reading fairy tales, myths and legends when I was a kid, and this exercice allow me to reconnect with some feelings I had not feel since I was a child.
Second, I am French speaking so I am not sure I can express correctly all I want to share here, but I’ll try my best.
Here are the thoughts that rise in me when I read that story.
**About the King’s and Queen’s screaming desire to have a child** : There are big risks in wanting to control everything, especially big powerful things like the birth of a living being. Despite «having everything you want», nobody deserves to control everything in their life. We must be careful about what we pray for.
**About the frog in the Queen’s bath** : I think this frog or toad persona is one of the archetypes that strikes my child’s soul the most when I was reading old stories as a young girl. I could not tell the exact titles of the other stories this frog/toad is in, but I remember it was in a lot of them. They gave me a weird sensual pleasure. I was in complete awe of nature when I was a kid, meaning it represented lots of wonders but also lots of fears to me. And imagining a talking frog/toad would appear in my bath was the perfect incarnation of all these mixed feelings. So, to me, in this story, the frog represents kind of a small devil with who the Queen is ready to make a pact to get what she thinks she knows she wants and deserves.
**About the 13th wise woman** : Maybe if the King also had to interact with a speaking frog in his bath in order to get the child he wants, he would have been better prepared to let go of all you need to let go of when you become a parent. Here, he decided that 12 was the exact number of wise women he should invite, no matter what. He decided to simply stick to his perfect plan. But there is simply no way you can protect yourself from the trials of life. They are woven into the fabric of life on Earth. There is no plan perfect enough to put them aside from somebody’s life. There are not even bad in essence, they teach us wiseness. Here, the King doesn’t learn his lesson from the 13th wise woman. He simply replied by more illusion of control.
**About the Princess finding the Old Lady** : It strikes me that Brier-Rose is kind of looking for the Old Lady and the spindle. Contrary to her parents, to who life trials seems to be going after, she is looking for them. Teenagers from all times do that : they chase experiences. The King and the Queen seems to think that because they took great care in doing everything possible to keep their prodigy child safe, they can relax, they can count on the fact that she and they are virtuous enough that nothing «bad» will happen to them.
**About the Sleeping** : Sometimes, while chasing experiences and trying things, we get hurt. And sometimes, instead of going through healing, we shut down, or at least some parts of us shut down. It commonly happens to the part of us that was initially able to experience romantic love. For some reasons, maybe because of overprotective parents, because of the common fear of being afraid or because of a really ego or physically frightening event, we freeze. Maybe this is a tale that the growing number of trauma therapists could use.
**About the Thorn Edge** : I was intrigued by this edge since I was a child. I have always been curious to see how beautifully or not it would be represented in books or movies. I often wished that the Prince would spend more time in it, so that the authors would have to spend word describing it. Which plant was it made of? Was it just one or more species? Was it there to protect the Princess and her princessdom or was it detrimental to her? Now I know this magic Thorn Edge is not more precisely described because in real life it can take so many forms. It represents the barriers we erect around us, around the frightened parts of us. This Edge is actually fabulously protective and enormously harmful, for us and for those trying to cross it.
***The hundred years had just passed, and the day had come when Little Brier-Rose was to awaken*** : This is the part I didn’t remember or I never knew. In my memories, in my romantic fantasy, in my naive ideals, the Prince was able to see through and go through the barriers surrounding the Princess despite she having to show any sign of being ready for this invasion. But it seems here that the Prince is not awakening Sleeping Beauty. She simply reached the moment she is ready to live again. And he, contrary to the King, is ready to embrace all that a life with the Princess will be bringing is in his life: the thorns and the roses.
**The Wedding**: Like all weddings, life is a story of great joys and great challenges.
When the King invites 12 of the 13 wise women he leans into the solar world of the masculine and ignores the lunar world of the feminine. The King does not honour balance between the two. 13 is associated with the 13 lunar cycles; with balance and harmony and with the sacred feminine. The 13th wise woman is warning us that if we don't live in balance and harmony between masculine and feminine energies we will die. We are a society in a supine slumber... we are sleep walking into species extinction, extreme violence.... To survive, we must awaken the frozen cord of connection between masculine and feminine, left and right, human and nature, between one and all......
Thank you for taking the time to comment.
"When the King invites 12 of the 13 wise women he leans into the solar world of the masculine and ignores the lunar world of the feminine." It could be ignoring. It could also simply be a lack of capacity. He knows there are 13. "There were thirteen of them in his kingdom, but because he had only twelve golden plates from which they were to eat, one of them had to remain at home." And "The 13th wise woman is warning us that if we don't live in balance and harmony between masculine and feminine energies we will die. We are a society in a supine slumber... we are sleep walking into species extinction, extreme violence.... To survive, we must awaken the frozen cord of connection between masculine and feminine, left and right, human and nature, between one and all...." I think there'a a lot of wisdom in that. I'll give that a mighty amen.
This question brings to mind many threads - as you began laying them out, spinning, roses, thorns, sleeping/waiting, quests, frozen time, return to old ways, right timing, divine/heavenly order, a girl who has it all but not quite, a prince whose timing is impeccable, overly protective parents who without knowledge and thereby set up the situation where their daughter's curiosity will be her own undoing, death as frozen time but not quite dead and gone, overgrown and buried in the vegetation time and buildings and people and life, stands still and while it is overgrown and hard to find, it does not create decay so this makes me think of what is it that does not decay, what stands in the face of time and progress and still is true, what is the perennial truth of life, of progress, of love, of nature, of the rose? That which gives the rose its perennial nature does not die but waits underground until the land the soil the air is right for it to bloom again. The one hundred years that the curse is inflicted ensures that all who knew the story are dead when the princess comes back to life by the kiss of the successful prince. The story however is kept alive by townsfolk who tell it and who caution princes who want to go on a quest and break the spell. What does the soil need to have to regenerate itself and create conditions for renewal and life? How do we weave stories and pass them down and watch the cautionary tales not help those who will nevertheless pursue the princess and the glory? We have the original story, and we have the story being passed down in the story. When is the time ripe for the story to bloom again in our time? Many will pursue and fail until the time is ripe for success and blossoming. Can't ignore the number twelve either - it is represented in the heavens and in the seasons and times we let fields go fallow in order to keep the soil rich and healthy for the next planting.
Janet! Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. "Many will pursue and fail until the time is ripe for success and blossoming." Aye. Just as we do in our own lives. Failing many times until we succeed. Beautiful thoughts. So grateful.
To me the signs are there to warn us of the spells we will continue to be under, until the harmony and balance of the Feminine and Masculine energies return. There are only 12 plates laid on the table because this represents the 12 solar months in the modern era (not 13 lunar months which were used in the older pre Gregorian pagan calender). 13 is associated with transformation, magic, new discovery , feminine power and rebirth. 13 was associated with the Pagan calendar and ways, which in turn was negatively associated in the post Christian era with witchcraft. Hence why the 13th fairy (witch) isn't invited. 13 is a number of transformation so the witches curse will also be a blessing. As we can't remain naive forever. The parents had been unable to conceive, however hope arrived when the Mother spoke to the frog and this shows she still had some link to nature and ancient wisdom herself. So all was not lost. The 13th fairy's curse placed into motion a challenge to bring balance. When the ways of the land (Pagan/lunar/feminine/earth Honouring) aren't understood, and the wisdom of the Female wisdom keepers ignored, there is imbalance between the Masculine and Feminine energy. Sleeping beauty is under a spell of disempowerment. (This was linked to the spindle prick. To be a spinster is to be unmarried , could this be by choice?) This spell is reflected in nature and the hidden castle lies asleep. Both the land and the people are frozen in time. There is no progress. Nobody dares to break the spell and men that try mostly fail. Sleeping beauty potentially represents the embodiment of the Feminine energy (the old ways of the land and pagan times) but this is yet unawakened. She has it all, in gifts and grace. But what use is this if she isn't able to be treated in equality with the masculine energy to bring harmony and empowerment back to the people and land. This male character is willing to take a risk and helps 'wake up' sleeping beauty from her psychological slumber and the spells everyone else is under. In the whole process of this apparent curse, it is really a blessing. There is unity in the people and land because the feminine has woken up because the Mothers unconscious wisdom set the potential in motion, the wise crone set a challenge for the masculine to take action and sleeping beauty waited for this to happen without settling for anything less. Unity and harmony return and so does nature as the spell of disempowerment receedes and so do the brambles.
Orietta, thank you for taking the time. "The 13th fairy's curse placed into motion a challenge to bring balance." I love this. One thing worth considering is that, in other versions of the story there are 3 or 7 or 8 of the grandmothers. It's not always 12 or 13.
"Sleeping beauty is under a spell of disempowerment." This could be so and I think there's a vaster thing going on than gender in this moment. Or it's gender in a grander scale.
"This spell is reflected in nature and the hidden castle lies asleep. Both the land and the people are frozen in time. There is no progress." - Aye. And I wonder if that's a good or bad thing or some other kind of thing.
I'm curious where in the story you see that she isn't being treated in equality with the masculine energy?
I think it's also worth wondering if this is a story about a young woman only and if the slumber is psychological in nature.
"the feminine has woken up because the Mothers unconscious wisdom set the potential in motion, the wise crone set a challenge for the masculine to take action and sleeping beauty waited for this to happen without settling for anything less" beautiful